Are you planning a new website? Do you want to launch your new website on time, on budget & without stress?
Planning a new website can be a daunting task, unless you do it everyday. The team at Concise have literally built thousands of websites over the past 15+ years. We know what works, and we know what leads to trouble.
This Concise Webinar includes the key points for planning a successful website, and how to turn vision into reality without drama. The webinar is presented by Gareth Lane & Richard Keeves, and covers:
Richard: Hello and good morning everybody. Welcome to this Concise Webinar. This webinar is on planning your new website. My name is Richard Keeves and I’d also like to introduce you to my friend, colleague and co-director at Concise Digital Gareth Lane.
Gareth: This is me. More compliments than usual. Happy to be here and any input I can offer in this I will be so back to you.
Richard: Thank you. Okay cheers. Thank you for coming along. There are a number of people here today and you may not have been to one of these Concise Webinars before. We do try to keep these 100% educational. This is not about sales pitches. This is about information you can use and hopefully this is going to be helpful for you. That’s our intention.
The session is being recorded. You’re very welcome to ask questions as we go along and there’ll also be some time at the end for live Q and A. We do the questions through the chat so if you can see the chat facility there on your screen feel free to ask questions as we go along through chat. As I mentioned this is being recorded and will be up on our YouTube channel and also on the Concise website a little later today or tomorrow.
This is about planning your new website. One of the questions that we get a lot is how much should a website cost. How much does a website cost? The obvious kind of question is after that how do you get one. How do you get a good website?
Before we get into the cost and also how you get a good website. There’s a quote that I came across many years ago it turns out from a guy called John Ruskin. This I it what Ruskin called the Law of Business. I’d just like to take a minute to read this because this kind of sets the scene for how we see things and also the things that you’ve got to be careful about. There is hardly anything in the world that somebody, someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey.
It is unwise to pay too much but it is also unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought is incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder it is well to add something for the risk you run and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.
That applies to pretty much everything in the world I reckon as far as my experience of buying things and it most definitely applies to websites. It’s unwise to pay too little and it’s unnecessary and unwise to pay too much.
With that in mind what does a good website cost and how do you get one. We’re going to come to the question of cost a little later but in terms of planning a website there are some key questions to think through first. I’ve got to say that Gareth’s been working with websites for 15 years. I’ve been working with websites for 25 years. We’ve got the other director Malcolm who’s similarly 20 years.
This is invariably true that a lot of people think it’s just about their website but for a business website it’s actually about the business first. Don’t focus on the website first. Focus on your business first and then think about what the website needs to have in order to deliver on your business. There are six questions that we like to stress. These are in order but just to focus on them six business questions that we say must come first when you’re planning a new website.
Question one, what is the purpose of your business. Why does your business exist? What are its values? What do you stand for? What will you not stand for? It’s really important to get clear on that if you’re starting a new business then you’ve probably got these sort of things in swirling around in your mind. You may have written them down but if you’re running a business that’s been around for five or ten or whatever years and now you’re planning a new website think through. Go back to basics or go back to what helped you start the business and get clear on these before you start building your website so purpose and value.
Then the next point I talk about is greatness. What can your business be great at? There’s no point especially on the web these days, there’s no point in being mediocre or average if you’re just going to be okay then you may not succeed in this world today especially trying to sell things online. What can you be great at?
Question three about uniqueness. What is it that makes your business different and special, ideally unique? You need to think about that and understand that those points about uniqueness and specialness need to come through in your website but before you can bring them through in your website you’ve actually got to get clear on them in your own mind about your business to say what is it that we do really well, why are we different, how are we different.
Then the question four, the ideal customers. Who is your target market? What customers are you aiming for? What customers do you want? Who do you not want? It’s okay to not want everybody as your customer. It’s okay. It’s really clever and good to know exactly who you are wanting and then figure out what you need to do to attract them.
The benefits, what real pains or problems do you solve. What are the benefits to customers and promises? What promises does your business make? What must the website do? What must you deliver? Also the points there about you’ve got to be clear about this. The more specific you are the better. There’s no point in kidding yourself so be honest with these, with your feedback and your thoughts about this.
Ideally do put it down in writing so you’ve got some clarity about your business. You might say hang on I thought we’re talking about planning a website. Yes, we are. The business questions have to come first otherwise you will have drama when you’re trying to explain your business on your website.
Gareth: Can I jump in there Richard?
Richard: Absolutely.
Gareth: Thanks so one of the reasons for these questions is to help a prospective web designer or web developer or web builder whoever it is involved in your new website to get a real good understanding of your business and what’s going to make a difference for you because you can pick a website, you can build a website but if you sort of get the wrong idea about the business and you get the wrong idea about a customer you end up building a website that’s not fit for purpose.
Then I often find that people have their first website and then they might have their second website and then it’s really not until they’ve had this sort of third or fourth website that they really start to know what it is that makes the phone ring or the sales convert because they’ve really sort of learned about their customer and know their business. The more you can do at the beginning to really think about who your customers are, who your competitors are, what you’re trying to do with your website, what your points of difference are then you’ll find you’ll get a much better end result. Back to you.
Richard: Cool, very good. Once you’ve thought about the business then start thinking about the website and what the website needs to have. Here are some questions to think about. The first one is to get very clear on what is the purpose of your site. There are six kind of general core purposes that we find websites typically have either making online sales or trying to attract customers into a retail store for example, generating leads, building credibility, providing information or providing customer service.
You can do multiple, you can do different bits of that. Like in other words you can have more than one purpose for your website. Get clear on what it is your purpose actually is and then make sure you convey that to whoever, to yourself first and whoever’s going to be building the website to say this is the purpose of the site. This is what it must achieve and this is why we’re having the site.
The point two there about benchmarks. Who are the benchmarks that you want to compare to? Who are your competitors? What are some similar sites that you like the look of, that you like the layout of, that you kind of admire, that you think I’d like to have something as good or better ideally than those sites? Obviously you want to be better than your competitors. Some of your competitors may be mega corps and mega like mega businesses with huge budgets and you may not be able to be better than them with the website but you can pick off a part of what you can do better and be great at. Focus in on doing that really well. This is again going back to those first key questions.
Then the point three. Functionality. What is it that the website’s going to do? What will users want? What will they expect when they come to your site? What is it that you must provide? What is it that you want to provide for your business as well? These are questions to do with the website.
Point four, about engagement. What is it that’s going to make your site engaging to people? How do you make sure that the design is making the site engaging? How do you make sure the content is? How do you make sure the site is going to be usable? Do you have to think about having a mobile first focus so that most people who come to your website are on a mobile device if that’s the case and it often is? In fact it is with most websites these days. Most website visitors or most visitors to websites do so on mobile devices.
These days and I say that with 25 years background where it wasn’t the case up until about five years ago. Five years ago Google said hey, there’s more people coming to websites on mobile devices than there are on desktops. Thought that’s interesting. Now it’s about thinking okay, let’s make sure the site works really well on mobile and it also has to work well on desktop but often a mobile first focus is really important to make the site engaging.
The point five there SEO and visibility how are people going to find you. There’s no point in having a website if people don’t know it exists and if you can’t tell them and if they can’t find it in google. How are people going to find you? What are they going to be looking for when they search for you? We call that their search intent. What is it that they are looking for when they search for the sorts of products or services that you provide?
Also for your business, if they search for your business how are they going to do that and are they going to find you. How will they find you? Are they going to be searching on a mobile device and needing to find you on a google map in which case you don’t actually have to have your website for that. You can do that with google maps but you can include your website within the google maps facility. There’s lots of things to sort of think through.
Point six conversions, metrics and KPIs. This is about outcomes. What do you actually want as a result of somebody coming on to your website? What’s the outcome? How are you going to get people who come to your website to take action? How are you going to convert them? With websites we talk about calls to action. You may see the acronym CTA. That stands for call to action.
Different buttons, different forms, different facilities on the website will be there as calls to action. You want people not just to go to the website and then leave or bounce. Another word for bounce is kind of bugger off. We don’t want them to do that. What you want them to do is click on something and go deeper into your site. Find exactly what they’re looking for and ideally buy something from you either then and there or later on. How are you going to measure these conversions and this calls for a lot of thought and also an understanding of what it is you want to achieve.
Now you’ve sort of thought about some of those things then now’s a good time to think okay, there’s also a technology component. This is stating the obvious but a lot of people think that the technology is the most important part. It’s not. Getting the business thoughts right first and getting the other components we’ve just talked about. How to make your site found easily, engaging and convert are far more important than your choice of technology. The technology is there to support it all.
It’s still an important consideration and with websites we talk about content management systems and e-commerce platforms. What content management system or platform is going to be best for you? This is where you need to take either listen to people who are your friends who’ve got similar sites. Find out what they used and what they’re happy with and what worked well or listen to people who build websites for a living and who you can trust and then find out what they recommend.
At Concise, we typically build websites in WordPress, PrestaShop or Shopify and we also use Laravel as a custom framework for building things that need to be built in a unique way. WordPress is an open source content management system that’s got lots of things that can plug into it. A few years ago and I think it’s probably similar now 20% of the world’s websites were built using WordPress. WordPress is a pretty good system as long as it’s kept up to date and hosted well. If it’s not then it can have lots of security holes. One of the problems with WordPress are sites that are not kept up to date from a security updating and maintenance perspective.
PrestaShop is an enterprise grade e-commerce system that again is open source which means you don’t have to pay for the software that you use to build the website. Laravel is a framework that allows websites to be built really quickly and very complex. Complex things can be built very quickly. SAS, software as a service platform Shopify is a hosted e-commerce solution that is pretty good for lots of e-commerce online store applications. There are other systems as well Big Commerce, Magento. I could rattle off a whole bunch but we can’t be experts in everything. We don’t want to be. We focus in on the things that we know are really good and allow us to build good cost-effective websites for the sorts of budgets and requirements that most of our clients have. We work with small to medium-sized businesses. We’ve got some very big businesses as well who are very big business clients who are doing literally millions of dollars and using these sorts of systems.
The second point is what third party integrations are important or mission critical. These days websites are not just about your website being hosted somewhere and existing in isolation to your business. Your website actually needs to be considered as part of your business. That kind of conceptually may make sense but then you think about it okay, what does that actually mean. Well the website can integrate with other business systems that you use.
In fact I would say it actually needs to integrate with other business systems that you use otherwise it’s just kind of sitting out there as a brochure for your business. If you want functionality that’s going to be really useful for your customers and people who are maybe your suppliers and your stakeholders, shareholders, whatever they might be then make sure that the website integrates with the business systems that you use and that your customers are likely to want to use when they come to your website.
This might be your CRM, customer relationship management system. It may be all sorts of things. Your accounting system Xero, Triumph. It may be an inventory management system such as Retail Express or a POS system. There are also systems that you can get to plug in reviews that may be collected at other parts of the internet and displayed on your website. There’s lots of third-party integrations that you can include and one of the things that I’m really proud to say at Concise we are seriously good at is integrating different systems with websites. Other web companies are good at that as well but not all I’ve got to tell you. Not all and we do a lot of third party integration.
Gareth: Can I butt in?
Richard: Of course. You don’t butt in. You add.
Gareth: I can add. Okay, I’ll add some comments. I think one of the sort of things where a lot of people go wrong with websites and briefing particularly in the past is that the client has sort of decided what they want as the platform rather than ask the web developers to suggest the best platform. My advice is always that the client should specify what they’re trying to do and what they’re trying to achieve and what the functionality requirements are and then let the web agency suggest the best platform for use because for example if you use Shopify it’s a great tool and really good for lots of business cases but as soon as you start getting a little bit outside of the box and have a few more sort of more difficult technical requirements Shopify can become very difficult and very frustrating to work with.
Sometimes if those functionality requirements are outlined at the beginning then a good web agency can tell you at the beginning that Shopify is not going to work for XYZ reason and so instead you should be running down a different path perhaps using Laravel or WordPress or one of those. I always think that’s a good point is I always have a bit of a sense check with new clients if they ask me or sorry, they tell me the software rather than ask me what the software is. That is a bit of good advice.
Richard: Yes, very good advice. Okay so that’s some pointers there and also the last point there about is the bank. Are you going to be needing to integrate payments? How are you going to do that? There’s a few things to think through from technology perspective.
One of the things that I would like to share in this webinar is one of our tips for turning as we say turning ideas into reality and I’ve developed a few years ago. In fact it’s quite a few years ago now, a bit of a model because I tried to figure out why it is that some plans and why some things go off track and why some business ideas just don’t get traction or why some and it goes to websites as well where some websites just don’t get built properly.
What it occurred to me is that there are different stages in the planning process and you actually need to have them all and not skip out on any. This particular model I’ll explain how it works. This model starts with someone who’s the visionary. In the world of the websites this is normally the business owner, the person who’s got an idea or a business and they say, here’s what I’d like to be achieving. Here’s what I want to achieve.
The visionary provides the ideas but the visionary needs to have the ideas be able to be translated into something that makes sense. The visionary needs to pass their ideas onto someone who for the purpose of this model we call them an architect. The architect turns the ideas into plans and then passes the plans onto somebody who is the builder. The builder then needs to think through the plans and turn those plans into tasks and then passes different tasks on to different tradies who then work on the tasks in a coordinated way to help build whatever it is that’s being built. Then help achieve what the architect had in mind and I hopefully ideally what the visionary, what the person had in mind.
This is whether you’re building a house or I would also say whether you’re building a website and lots of other things as well. You actually need to have somebody who can convert ideas into plans. Then have somebody who can do something with those plans. Where things go wrong is when the visionary starts talking directly to the tradie and trying to get the tradie to understand where to lay that brick or where to do that bit of coding. The tradie says, I don’t even know what you’re talking about mate. I just need a very clear task and then I’ll do it but I can’t cope with an unformed idea. This happens so often and so where things go off track is where visionaries talk to the tradies.
Now this is in no way meant to be derogatory to tradies. In our business and in web companies the tradies are the web specialists, web designers, graphic designers, programmers, SEO strategists, writers, editors, QA testers, all of these people form part of the team that help build the website. If you’re building a house you’ve got plumbers, brick layers, painters, I don’t know plasterers, whatever else but for web companies the web specialists need to do these work.
The architect takes the idea from the visionary, creates the plan. The plan may be in the form of a website brief. For a complex system it may be something called a solution architecture plan. Also ideally at that point of thinking about the business and the issues is to develop a digital marketing plan to then be able to say okay, once you get your website up then it’s a case of making sure that you achieve your marketing outcomes. Let’s make sure we build in those the things that are required into the website as part of the marketing plan. For example the calls to action, forms, how people are going to respond, how you’re going to interact with them and a bunch of other things.
For the purposes of the model think about the need for a visionary to talk to somebody and ideally that person, let’s call them the architect, the architect turns the ideas into plans and passes them on to the builder. The builder needs to get the task done. The problems happen when you don’t have clear plans. The next problem is that when different people like when the visionary starts talking to the tradies they actually talk different languages. They have different mindsets. They have different languages and they don’t understand each other. This is based on my experience. Web companies are notorious, if you have a client who wants to come in and sit over like try to talk to a programmer they actually end up confusing each other.
You’ve got to make sure you get the right people on the team, get the right team doing your work, get a good architect to translate the vision into good plans. Also make sure that when you’re choosing your team you choose a team that has the ability to do what you need it to do. Word of mouth recommendations are always good but make sure also that you check references.
If someone says okay, these are some sites I did for these three clients then ring them up. Say how did you find that experience. How was it? What did you learn? What went right? What went not right? Okay so enough on that. Hopefully you’ve got the concept. You can re-watch the video or talk later on if you want about that or please ask any questions. Now we’re moving on. Going a little bit over time here but we’re almost done.
The question now goes to how much is enough. What’s the budget? How much do good websites cost? The point here is that for us and for most web companies it’s about time. It’s about how much does the company or does the hourly rate cost and how many hours is it going to take. Some web companies charge additional fees for whatever reason but at Concise we don’t. We charge a fair hourly rate, and you only pay for the time we take.
Let’s give you some idea. A very simple website could be built for example in about maybe 10 hours. A good basic WordPress website might take between 30 and 60 hours. Again these are rough. We could build a good website in WordPress for 20 hours but someone else may come along and want something a bit more fancy and it may take 80 hours. These are ballparks.
A Shopify store could potentially get a Shopify store built in 20 to 30 hours. It may take more. It wouldn’t be unusual for a Shopify store to be to need 50 to 80 hours’ worth of work done especially if there’s complex design work and there’s a lot of thinking through how the product structure is going to work and various other aspects. Shopify looks like it’s a low-cost thing to get into. You can you can buy Shopify for $29 a month. You can set up a Shopify store yourself but when you decide you need to do something that’s a little bit out of not exactly what is being planned within the theme that you might have got then it takes a little bit of time from people who know what they’re doing. I’m very pleased to say we do lots of Shopify work and we do know what we’re doing.
This gives you an idea about hours. A big website could be 200 hours to a thousand hours. Could be. I mean we don’t have too many websites these days but a few years ago when everything had to be custom built when there were no WordPresses and there were no Shopifyes. We had to build an e-commerce system and it wasn’t unusual for an e-commerce system to cost about $50,000 for example for an online shop. These days you can get the same functionality for nothing because it comes to you with WordPress and so you might be able to set up that for $5000.
Back 20 years ago we would have custom built an ecommerce store just to reiterate our point and it might have cost between $20,000 and $50,000 and you can now get that functionality out of a box, already built, open source and you could deploy the whole thing, set it up for maybe $5000. That gives you an idea how things have moved and it’s really interesting to kind of have the perspective to say hey, you get far better value these days but it’s still about making sure you get things working for your business.
The next point I just want to raise and Gareth’s going to talk about this one. Some web companies work with and try to give you fixed prices. Other companies and Concise is one of these other companies gives you ballparks and estimated prices. Gareth, give us your thoughts on this.
Gareth: This came out of a personal experience. Long time ago Concise did used to do fixed pricing. We used to say oh, we’ll build your website for $2000 or build your website for $5000. What unfortunately happened is that a lot of the jobs just evolve and you get something called scope creep where what you thought you were doing at the beginning then turns into something else.
If a website project goes over a fixed price budget then the agency always kind of feels left out and then sort of loses interest and goes well, I can’t afford to do any more work on this if you’re not going to pay anymore because we’ve already exceeded our budget. You kind of lose out. The agency loses out and then the client feels a bit grumpy because they are being asked to pay more than they thought and so on.
Then the vice versa is if a fixed price is overpriced so say the website, they agreed to $5000 but really it was only $2000, the agency kind of rubs their hands together and goes oh, we’re happy. Then the client then finds out six months later that they paid $3000 too much and then the client gets really pissed off. Then they end up going somewhere else.
I don’t believe fixed pricing really works for web development for either the client or the agency. Basically someone’s going to win and someone’s going to lose but it doesn’t make for a good long-term relationship and you really need a good long-term relationship with your web developer because you’re pretty much in their hands for anything to do with your website particularly if it’s e-commerce. You’re going to need their hands. The primary thing should always be have a good working relationship with your web team. I’m not saying that just because we’re an hourly rate. I’m saying it because we did do it the other way for a long time and we made the decision about 10 years ago to change the model to be an hourly rate service.
Basically if we do some work for you then you’ll pay. I think that is a much healthier way of working with a client. The clients always know where they stand. They always know that if they are going to have some more work done they know that there’s going to be an hour. Of course you need to have a trust and transparent relationship with your web agency so if you are going to use someone on an hourly rate service make sure you get some time logs or some detailed timing. Make sure you know what you’re paying for with time. Some agencies will charge you for project management time others won’t. If you are paying an hourly rate just make sure you know exactly what that hour includes and how it’s calculated.
If you are going for a fixed price you need to be really, really, really, really clear with the inclusions right at the beginning. Make sure that everything is put up front particularly large projects are extremely difficult to put fixed prices on because there’s so many unknowns. You would always want to find out what happens to the fixed price if the scope changes. I would be highly surprised if any web agency can just do it all in one price no matter how many things change. If they can it means that there’s a lot of fat already built into it or they might be a business that may be going broke.
Richard: Good summary there Gareth. I think the thing with getting a fixed price is that the person who gives you a fixed price will generally slash always build in a margin that covers their risk if things take a little longer than they thought. The question then is how much of a margin is being added in that may never get used. You may feel more comfortable with the fixed price but you may also be paying a far more than you need to have one. As Gareth just mentioned if the scope changes or if the requirements change then you can end up paying more.
In fact we came across just a few months ago now somebody who’d spent $20,000 getting a WordPress website built. They were charged $20,000 which they didn’t know any different at the time. They paid their $20,000. The things didn’t go very well and we realized when we spoke to them when they came to talk to us is that we could have built the same thing I think it was for like $3000 I think Gareth. It was something like that.
We just sort of talked about how there’s just a lot of businesses, a lot of web companies who don’t necessarily always do the right thing. Anyway so think about that. That’s one of the questions about getting estimated prices and fixed prices can work against you. If it’s a simple system and someone says I can build that for a thousand dollars and they know exactly what they’re building then maybe that’s just fine but something more complicated be very careful.
In fact let’s look at this next point why some projects go off track. The first one is I think and again this is just a reality that sometimes there’s a poor choice of the web team and the relationship between the web company and the client is just not a great fit. You need to find someone or you need to find a just as the agency, the web agency needs to do they need to make sure that they take on business that they can deliver on their promises. The client also needs obviously to make sure that it’s a good selection.
Unrealistic expectations is something that generally will help projects go off track. Unclear explanations, poor plans, delays in the client providing content is something that holds websites up. In fact it’s probably the biggest delaying factor for websites is getting the content together. Often the client says I’ll supply all the content then and web company builds the website, waits around for the client to supply the content and the client says oh okay, I better get onto that now. Then three months later they still haven’t got onto it and so things can get delayed but and one of the reasons is content.
Changes to spec, changes to scope, changes to the staff at the client’s business, it often can make things go off track. If somebody is in charge of running the website project for that particular business for the client business and that person leaves and that gets handled to someone else. Projects go off track a lot when that happens. Be careful who’s taking the responsibility for the project.
Also the other thing is we talk about website projects and for a while I’ve sort of thought we need better language around this. Website projects imply that there is a start and a stop to the project. Really there is as far as the development aspect is concerned but once the site is developed and launched it then moves into a whole different phase. It’s not the end of the website project. It’s the next phase of the website project. The build is finished but the ongoing marketing, updating, maintenance of the website and improvement enhancement of the website then really needs to continue on.
The website really is never finished which is kind of interesting and it’s a bit scary for some clients. The website is a living breathing thing or at least it needs to be. It’s part of the business and it needs to be treated that way.
That has been a quick rip through of how to get a good website. I guess in summary think about making sure that you’ve got a good understanding of your business to start with, understand what the website needs to have, be able to explain that to people who can convert your ideas into plans that make sense. Work with a team that can deliver on those plans and make sure that you are managing the process within the time and the resources that you’ve got available to you.
Really happy to take any questions now. I’m sorry I’ve yapped on a bit too much. I’m sorry this has gone a little longer. Hopefully it’s been helpful but if you’ve got any questions now is a great time to pop them in the chat. Gareth, is anything you want to add before we wrap?
Gareth: No, I think it was a really great summary and a few little hints about Concise but it’s only because of the way that we’ve done it. I think we’re very fortunate that we’ve been in this industry quite a long time. I think Richard’s probably one of the oldest people in the industry with the most experience. I’m probably the oldest young guy in the industry particularly in WA. Between us we’ve probably done something like a hundred thousand website projects. I mean we’ve done 50,000 in 15 years. I think chuck on a few more for you Richard and I think there’s a lot of experience added up there and a lot of learnings.
I always just say to client I’m more than happy to get a web agency do a sense check on another web agency’s quote. There are some sharks. Unfortunately we are an industry that is unregulated and there’s no standard. There’s no sort of ASIC or governing body that sits above us. It is a little bit of a cowboy industry in some respects but I think the ultimate advice we can always provide to people is find someone that you like and trust. Make sure that you’re happy with their terms. Make sure that there’s no hidden T’s and C’s. If things change which always do with websites. No website has ever gone live the first time with exactly what the client wanted in the first place. It always evolves. Make sure that if you do sign up for a fixed price or a package deal or something like that you’re aware of what you’re getting and not getting so that you can be prepared. Otherwise I think great info.
Richard: Okay, thanks everybody. There are more webinars coming up. We’ll tell you about those as we go along. I hope this has been a good session. Look forward to your feedback. If you want any help with any of this please let us know. On behalf of him and me thank you very much for coming along today. If you’ve got any questions, we won’t go on now but if you’ve got any questions please feel free to ask. We’re happy to help in any way we can. Thank you very much everybody. Have a great day.
Gareth: Thanks. Bye.
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